The Middle Chamber interviews JAN IRVIN and JOE ATWILL: The CIA and the COUNTERCULTURE

tmc FXnMX

Jan Irvin and Joe Atwill join FX n MX to discuss the latest video Psychedelic Intelligence, MK Ultra, the CIA and the Counter Culture.

Show links:
Part one:
Part two:

On Sticher:
Part 1:
Part 2:


Online version of the Brain investigation database:

Psychedelic Intelligence: The CIA and the Counterculture:

Manufacturing the Deadhead: A product of social engineering… by Joe Atwill and Jan Irvin:

The Secret History of Magic Mushrooms

Professor Neil Whitehead interview: Dark Shamanism

Karen of GirlWritesWhat interview – “The Feminist Fallacy” – #146

Curtis Duncan interview – “The Conspiracy to Feminize Males & Masculinize Females” – #149 (In the Archives):

An Interview with Gary Wilson – “This is Your Brain on Porn” – #190


  18 comments for “The Middle Chamber interviews JAN IRVIN and JOE ATWILL: The CIA and the COUNTERCULTURE

  1. Ralph Davis
    June 18, 2014 at 1:46 am

    No comments, intolerable. Good compilation, Jan. Your research, excellent as usual, and its implications are, ..well, ominous as usual.

    In reflecting on the interviews of yours that I’ve seen, admittedly not all, but particularly those that cast a such a wide net of indictment over cultural expression in art, music, and literature, implicitly at the very least, it seems that there’s no baby to be seen in the bathwater. There must be something of worth in the creative energies of a generation that you seem, by implication and nearly exclusively, to hold in utter contempt.

    It may not be your intent to suggest that the entirety of the 60’s legacy is essentially worthless as consciously critical expression of culture suffering the cumulative ravages of moral and social corruption, intellectual stasis and overwhelming psychological and spiritual misdirection accrued over the span of centuries. But I wonder what standard of cultural achievement it is that you use comparatively beyond what lies in your creative imagination. It certainly can’t be our world of today that, beyond advanced technology, remains as challenged and inept in countering prodigious and refined mind corrupting influences.

    I don’t like feeling defensive for my own generation’s missteps, and perhaps it’s attributable to impatience bred in sheer rate of discovery enabled by mutually beloved interwebs of today. But be assured that from early adolescence many, if not enough, ‘boomers’ not so technically enabled, were and remain cognizant, determined and humbled in the daunting but irrefutable need of achieving consciousness worthy of our imagined potential as self-realized, moral, compassionate and creative human beings.

    The notion of successive or regressive generational superiority appears as subjectively fallacious and illusory to me today as it did a half century ago. Difficult as that may be to broadly achieve, it would be helpful to consciously get past that prejudice where and whenever we can, I think.

    Spare all wet babies, if you’d be so kind.

    • forky
      June 21, 2014 at 12:07 am

      Hey Ralph,

      So tell us if you would, what are some of the good things that came out of the 60’s counterculture movement? Now that I know what I know (thanks LARGELY to Mr. Jan), I can’t think of ONE. These pop-culture icon military robots have served as the Judas goats to manipulate the collective consciousness of the American youth – and control their THINKING. Some of the youth adhered to conservative values, which then allowed for controlled opposition. The problems of ignorance and brain washing that today’s youth suffer from are the legacy of the 60’s satanic mind-fuck show. Wouldn’t you agree?

      So what babies are you defending, Rosemary’s?



      • Ralph Davis
        June 25, 2014 at 6:30 am

        Hey Forky,

        Jan certainly has articulated an underlying matrix of intelligence establishment individuals and initiatives conceived to co-opt cultural movements, presumably to enable social compliance with governmental agendas. But it’s entirely debatable how effective these operations actually were in the 60’s in any more a material way than they are today, or were in the 90’s, 80’s, or 30’s, etc.

        As to music of the 60’s, it was awash with creative talent that evolved from a parent body of traditional, folk and classical origins. Blues, folk and classical forms begat jazz which begat rock and its array of various expressions from pop to fusion.
        Much of it focused on basic aspects of human behaviors such as expressions of love in relationships, reflections on culture and protest of bigotry and violence. Just as it always has throughout human history. Was it bad music? Did it make us crazy or immoral? Maybe some of it did for some, some of it was pretty dark. But, that’s been the case throughout musical history and true in visual arts and literature as well expressing the breadth of human experience.

        There’s no doubt that both government and commercial interests conspire to exploit psychological means where and when they may to influence behaviors. But to assume that they’re wholly successful in effectively controlling artistic expression to their desired ends is a stretch. That’s not to say that commercial fads don’t run their course, but they’re limited in scope.

        Consider this; the 60’s were immediately preceded and enveloped by successive wars. There was a huge portion of the population that had relationships to the military. It’s not surprising at all that any number of 60’s musicians had parents that had a history of military service. And, maybe a case can be made for the likes of Jim Morrison to have had help and direction in his career for nefarious purposes of psychologically manipulating his audience towards negative and self-destructive behaviors, but a Joni Mitchell or Ritchie Havens?

        Generalizations and stereotypes by innuendo just don’t work towards coming to truthful understanding about anything. Art itself is as complex as the humanity that produces it from the myriad influences of human experience and perception. If you’re looking to indict the integrity of that expression as mere product of programmed automatons absent any creative authenticity or culturally critical validity, then you’ve got some heavy work cut out to establish that as fact.

        If, on the other hand, you mean to suggest that the entirety of human experience is corrupted fundamentally, that we’re products of dark spiritual artifice intent on destroying or perverting creative intelligence, that’s another worthy discussion.
        Meanwhile, a bit of compassion for what all generations of humanity experience and express will go a long way to assist us in coming to terms with exactly who and what we are as conscious and intelligent beings of creative potential.

        One recurrent observation in the methodology of subversion by intelligence operations is reliance on co-option of its human targets through a menu of exploiting fear and weakness to misdirect and manipulate. Beyond devising means of co-opting, there’s little in the way of any other creative originality or product. There’s an abundance of that at work today just as there’s always been. To single out the 60’s as some special inflection point for cultural degeneration by particularly indulgent youth seems glaringly mistaken since it’s clear that that process has been routinely engaged for many millennia in successive generations to the present. Scapegoating and stereotyping is always disingenuous, misleading and false.

        We’re all, young and old, in this together, friends.

        • forky
          June 25, 2014 at 9:14 pm

          Hey Ralph,

          Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Let me start off by saying that Pete Seeger was a well known communist in the folk genre. Why not little Joni? The famous Woodstock Festival coincided with “the first moon landing”. The research of Jan and his colleagues has lifted the rock and totally exposed the colony of roaches nested at Laurel Canyon and beyond. The ironic insult is that these “artists” have ALWAYS been working for the other side. Have you read this??

          Joni Mitchell is mentioned. Maybe you haven’t realized the extent of it all. By the way, Hendrix was a paratrooper for the Army.

          I remember the late 60’s and what spilled over into the sequential decade. I love that music and even today, The Beatles are my favorite band of all time. They were ALL pushing a subversive agenda. “They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.”. What is that saying? Another irony is that the Soviet Union banned all music by The Beatles and the youth of that “global region” had to smuggle it in so they could have an all-night party, repeatedly playing just one 45rpm single.

          I was a teenager in the 80’s. Three anti-subversive bands that come to mind are Talking Heads, Oingo Boingo and Tonio K.
          Mostly all the rest were pushing the “pop” cliche commie agenda.

          The civil rights movement was fully orchestrated by the Feds to overstep their lawful authority within The States, just as gay marriage and free health care are orchestrated today. MLK was a trained commie who plagiarized MORE THAN HALF of his authored papers and speeches – that’s a fact. Sure, your average goody-good gets warm and fuzzy over these subjects – because it’s so EASY to go along with them. That’s the power of lame pop culture.

          I know what “artists” influenced my thinking back in the hippie days. I was conned…
          So I’m still wondering what baby roaches we should spare. Can you name one?


          • June 25, 2014 at 9:25 pm

            Nice reply. Let’s think of things as a whole and not just dismiss Joni Mitchel because she’s a personal hero and “it’s perverse”.

          • Ralph Davis
            June 26, 2014 at 9:20 am

            The information farm opened a real can of worms for me, Forky.

            I’m having to backpedal and re-reference, as accurately as I’m able, the entire period as it was personally lived and perceived. No easy task at this distance, but the ifarm is aiding memory resonance process. So, thanks for that, ..I think.

            I lived in a beach house in Santa Monica in ’69 just north of the pier and casually knew Gary Hinman as a friend. I worked in graphics at a print shop in Venice and did sand sculpting in the evenings on the beach.

            Gary was a bagpiper and had a group from a Buddhist sect temple on the beach who played sunsets regularly. He was talented, generous and genuinely likable, always found interest in what I was doing with sand and we’d sometimes talk and walk down to Alice’s restaurant on the pier. About a week after the last time we did that, just before the moon landing, his body was found murdered in his house in Topanga Canyon.

            No one at the time who knew him on the beach had any idea of who or why, just this really decent guy had been brutally killed. From that point on in 1969, LA revealed itself in ways few could imagine, and the music culture culminated that eventful year with deadly Altamont.

            It’s interesting what we willingly repress and excuse by default in our culture, Forky. But, if we persist in questioning, even hesitatingly to desperately preserve some sanctuary myth narrative, we’ll invariably pay up one way or another, eh?

            I’ll read on.


          • forky
            June 26, 2014 at 5:32 pm

            Thank you Ralph for the story and for your comments (and thank you Jan for yours 🙂

            I’m sorry to hear about your friend. It sounds like you had some sweet memories of that neighborhood too. I’m familiar with the area of beach you’re talking about. I used to attend New Age meetings at the Senior Center for 2 or 3 years in the mid 80’s. I’m fond of that community, though something sinister does seem to linger in the ocean air. Is it just me or does an aerial view of the RAND Building resemble the eye of Horus gazing out upon The Pacific (the ocean is an esoteric symbol for “the masses”)?

            It’s a wonderful thing to see the light bulb go on in an intelligent person’s head. I can imagine how you feel because I felt the same way when that link was sent my way a few years back. It was shocking and fascinating – and it made perfect sense. It was the first I’d heard of McGowan. The “mostly true” part in the title had me wondering. Without a secondary source to this fantastic tale, I filed it away for later review and verification. More recently I came upon Jan’s ominous jigsaw puzzle of historic connections and monumental podcasts. They made a believer out of me.

            I would have used Mr. McGowans link but this one has pics and videos to support its claims. Much more interesting for keeping track of Dave’s massive chronicle. Who can comprehend the gist of this story and not need to read his book? I regret that I missed Dave’s book signing last Sunday in Ho-town. I had a bit of a hangover from a Saturday night backyard wedding reception. DON’T drink tequila haha…

            Thank you folks, God bless you.


          • forky
            June 27, 2014 at 2:43 am

            “Gary Hinman, a musician, music teacher, and part-time chemist, was brutally murdered in his Topanga Canyon home on July 27, 1969. Convicted of his murder was Mansonite Bobby Beausoleil, who had played rhythm guitar in a local band known as the Grass Roots. To avoid confusion with the more famous band already using that name, the Laurel Canyon band changed its name to Love. Beausoleil would claim that the band’s new name was inspired by his own nickname, Cupid.”

        • June 25, 2014 at 9:24 pm

          Please read McGowan’s book before leaping to conclusions about the evidence. If you have specific citations, etc, from our work that you take issue with, cite them directly, but don’t make meandering, unsupported claims. Take your time to study through all of the work and evidence and take it in…

          BTW, most of the musicians from the 60s were done by a band called The Wrecking Crew… but what you’ve done above and in your other replies is to ignore all of the evidence that McGowan has presented and then set up your own straw man explanation.

          • Ralph Davis
            June 26, 2014 at 7:29 am

            Point taken, Jan.

            For the moment I’ll be occupied sifting the information farm link that Forky provided above. I’m just into it and, frankly, it’s unexpectedly dredging up many relevant memories from long ago.

            The process of critical deconstruction can be brutal, and exhausting, ..and a seemingly endless maze. I shouldn’t moan about it, but every time one takes too long a pause for respite, or for practical demands, one pays a price.

            Anyway, thanks for the prod.

    • nomoreheroicdoses
      June 22, 2014 at 1:48 pm

      @ Ralph

      I don’t think that the gist of the research is directed exclusively at your generation, although the 60’s was
      self evidently where much of the weaponized culture really took off. The funny thing about the sixties is that
      so many of that generation still believe the hype. There is a self importance and a giddy belief that there was something truly
      world-changing going on but in reality was an explosion of a manipulative and nihilistic pop culture masquerading as something more, and finding fertile ground in a post war generation that was desperate for something reactionary.
      It is that self-important feeling that all cults and swindles and movements prey on. ‘We’re different.’
      ‘We’re not like the humans that came before us’.
      The message was the medium, and the medium was mass media. And in that message was not much of any susbstance, but a parallel world inhabited by ‘famous’ cool people and everyone else wanting to become those famous people.
      That’s why the Beatles were bigger than Jesus. They had better PR.
      Lennon should have said they were bigger than Hitler, which might have had a darker truthy comedy to it, as the 60’s movement was far more similar to that New Age Thule Truth movement than people truly realise – sexual liberation, new ‘art’ and architecture, new inventions, a far more modern ubermensch. That generation was a also tricked into rebelling against it’s parent’s generation [not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s a dynamic that is exploited each and every time], so they joined the Hitler Youth. At least they could get laid! In fact it was compulsory. And everything was going to be so . . .so new and thrilling! And they invented amphetamines and heroin! And they had channeling and everything. And their own archaic revival with Runes and everything. Party like it’s 1929.
      Plus ca change . . .

      I think that what we’re trying to do here is at last to shed light on why these pervasive dynamics have been so
      effective. We’ve all been victims of it, there’s no shame in that. What makes me so happy is that the meta-story
      has now broken out of the dream narrative, thanks to the honest, inquisitive and persistent research of Jan and others
      and is is now bearing such awesome rewards in that this story is now broken wide open and we can not only see, we can prove.
      Prove that we were fooled, of course, but prove how and by whom and in what manner.
      Won’t get fooled again, right?

      On a related note, I decided a little while back to pick out an artist I used to like from that era, and see if there was a military connection, just to see if there was – because after McGowan’s material on Laurel Canyon, well . . . i figured it an idea worth testing out.
      So I thought, well I must look into Joni MItchell, because, surely Joni Mitchell couldn’t have had any military connections, could she? I mean . . you know. . . . that would be . .crazy, right . . . etc etc.

      I finally got round to it the other day and wanted to post it here.

      ‘Her father was a Royal Canadian Air Force flight lieutenant who instructed new pilots at Fort Macleod, where the Allied forces were gathering to learn to fly. During the war years, she moved with her parents to a number of bases in Western Canada.’

      Ho hum. No wonder she fit in at the canyon.

      Now, there’s a whole other branch of this which I’ve been thinking about for a while, specifially
      David Lynch, whose work I used to really enjoy because I felt it dealt with the dark reality of the world [I was wrong],
      and because he creates audiovisual and intellectual events with a seemingly magical power, and plays with
      the illusions of the illusions, and I felt he didn’t insult the intelligence. There is no band. No ay banda.
      Except he does insult the intelligence. Quite cleverly.
      I have been working on a piece about this, and the more I look at it, the more
      I think that DL is having a good laugh about all this stuff, and that his movies are mainly a celebration of
      the psychopathic elite mindset and a celebration of the truly sad and depraved and mindfucked,
      especially his ‘women in trouble’ and ‘innocence perverted’ motifs. Betty Blue is coming to mind, isn’t it.
      I’ll get aroud to getting it into a coherent few paragraphs and post it
      on this site sometime soon. Of course, there’s a McKenna connection. And Nazi’s.

      Thanks Jan. Keep it up!

      • Ralph Davis
        June 25, 2014 at 8:34 am

        Hey nomoreheroicdoses,

        Being a bit pressed for time, but wanted to reply directly to you points of your post which is thoughtful, and humorous as well.

        I don’t know at what generational point you found yourself being a teenager, but there’s a natural tendency to assign that life period a special developmental significance. The 60’s was pretty challenging as such for many of us due to shifts in cultural dynamics that were largely imposed by history. Post war boomers were delivered into a frenzy of compensational behavior for the trauma preceding, and it really did feel like the best and worst of times as it unfolded.

        I’ll just add that it was significantly more than the ‘pop’ culture that seems to have captured imaginations on the basis of musical legacy. It was a brutal period of struggle for many and an imposed alienation on youth who disdained being co-opted into the mainstream narrative.

        Need I remind of the revolution of civil rights, a succession of assassination, an ominous overhang of nuclear threat and constant nightmare manifestation of meaningless war?

        Small wonder then that those of us subject to institutional failures of mainstream culture, the resulting violence and indefensible political immorality driving it all, fled complicity by resistance to it and tried as we could to enable our creativity and apply it to life.

        It’s too bad that the worst of it is all that’s cited and placed suspect as contrived by architects of the same mentality that fostered and cultivated the mindset that the heart of the counter-culture found so compellingly repulsive in devious and destructive culture of death and mayhem.

        Joni Mitchell, ..agent of fascism? Wow. There’s something seriously perverse with that idea.

  2. john cokos
    June 18, 2014 at 2:34 pm

    Picked up few pointers from the interview. “Animal Huxley” was the granddaughter of of Aldus Huxley. She was the ‘old lady of the original bassist of Steppenwolf in the 60’s. A part of the Zappa LA /Freakout scene. Not much background on her, as trail runs cold after 1968. Where is she now ?

    No one has been able to connect all the dots on Vito P and Zsou background for a number of reasons. Vito’s background extends to a period that for the most part is unaccessible. It extends to his time in Europe, where he was re-created into the “King of the Freaks”. a product of the CIA/Jesuit/Masonic nexus. I’ve uncovered the link for my own satisfaction for Sue, it’s a local connection of all things, Sue was a “Doppelganger” modeled after a prominent female still alive who she had contact with on parallel levels. Maybe Sue is vague on a number of level because she doesn’t have a conscience awareness of her past . Who Lnows ?

    The perpetual reliving the past would explain why the Blacks in this country are so far behind the curve. They worship and revel in the past with all its dead ends.They are a classic, concrete example of the Psychic Mind Fuck that Joe reference’s That’s my story and I’m sticking to it…

    The term Psychedelic was first introduced into the music scene by Roky Erickson of the 13th Floor Elevators early 60’s. A Texas pioneer of the psychedelic rock genre.

  3. Omaraven Hurst
    July 6, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    I’m not a boomer but seemingly missing from every discussion online of the general area of Dave McGowan’s fascinating Laurel Canyon research is a voice I’d have expected to hear, the one that would remind us that ‘But hey the point is that we kids were against our parents’. Without offering so much as a doubt upon the idea that the Laurel Canyon bands may have been subject to manipulation to lesser or greater degrees by forces including their own lust, addictions, desire to belong (in addition to MKULTRA operatives, natch), what seems to be adrift is an idea throughout all of the conspiracy-o-sphere that a connection implies that both ends are part of the same organisation. (This is not necessarily how fax machines work never mind human beings.)
    So while I applaud the research that has revealed connections I am aghast but perhaps not surprised that spurious assumptions are felt to be necessary to ‘sell’ this research.

    Admittedly, this may result from even a brief survey of the marketplace online wherein Paul McCartney’s shoeless crossing has been proof for forty years of his demise, meaning that it’s the conclusion that people are after but, really, the achievement of Jan, McGowan and all is the posing of questions, the making of connections that invite further, more detailed research.

    What bothers me is that there’s a packaging of this new research that looks uncannily like David Noebel and others. Not that they bothered with any research to back up their ‘hypotheses’ that longhairs were subverting the n*gger-lynching family values of the time.
    But it cannot be denied that the hypothesis which accompanies Gnostic Media’s research all the way seems to be the same as back then with ‘Communists’ replaced by ‘NWO’.

    Which leads fairly readily to a suspicion that we are not just revisiting the tropes here but the actual agenda:
    ‘Back to the fifties’

    • forky
      July 6, 2014 at 11:53 pm

      Hi Omar,

      It sounds like you’re trying to say that you applaud the research but you don’t believe it has any “market value” because it doesn’t constitute any ‘real’ work. Is that about right or am I missing your point? What was it that you find bothersome about the presentation? These guys are risking their very lives – daily – to free your mind and un-brainwash you. It looks like they still have a ways to go yet. Are you an American?

      You come across as a socialist. The NWO ‘are’ the communists. Do you not get that? They’re the same people from the very same bloodlines. How do you equate nigger-lynching with family values? That there is a perfect indication that you have been spoon-fed commie propaganda since the day you were born. I think what you don’t understand is that a sizable number of conservative minded and intelligent people knew all along that the longhairs were commies in sheep’s clothing. The American youth of that day were invited by these commies to rebel against their parents, and from that point they were lead astray and demoralized – and so has modern society been demoralized, to the point that family values now means lynching black people. Classic Orwellian double-speak, right out of 1948…

      I don’t mean to be so critical of your personal thoughts. It just seems like you aren’t really getting the message for what it’s worth. You’re free to speak your mind right now because of “50’s values”. You probably don’t actually believe that you yourself have been directly affected by MK ULTRA but the truth is, it’s very much a part of your everyday life.


  4. Omaraven Hurst
    July 17, 2014 at 4:09 pm

    Well if you say so, Forky. But I’m far from a commie and far from an American. (And for that I can only thank “BOB”.)
    That’s probably why your rewriting of my previous posting in a pro-forma ‘soft-redneck’ stylee continues to suggest that regardless of any detail in actual research, the vehicle upon which it’s being placed is very much the Back to the Fifties agenda that’s being forcefully re-embedded into ‘a debased culture’ by born-again boomerdom.
    Happily it’s a boomerang (a boomerwrong) as it’s imminently going to be the nineties revival which finally gets y’all ready for burial.

    • forky
      July 17, 2014 at 10:32 pm

      Well, if I’m a redneck I’m one of the good ones. In the words of notable Hollywood commie Gary Sinise, “Country don’t mean dumb…” haha.

      I guess you’re too young to remember The Constitution…


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