Logic, Fallacies, and the Trivium. Tony Myers Interviews Jan Irvin

This is an interview I did the week of April 11, 2011, with Tony Myers at Richard Andrew Grove's house in Hartford, Connecticut.

  19 comments for “Logic, Fallacies, and the Trivium. Tony Myers Interviews Jan Irvin

  1. arthur duran
    June 5, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    Great job guys, another fantastic overview on the Trivium. I’ve just got the Sister Miriam book and plan on going through it with my wife, we want to get familiar with the Trivium so that we can implement this method of learning how to learn into, not only our lives but into our child’s life. I would like to include him in our studies, just not sure how to go about doing that.Do you have any book suggestions for teaching children the Trivium? Again, Thank you Jan for all your hard work.

    • Mark B
      June 6, 2011 at 10:05 am

      Arthur, I’m not Jan, but I’m thinking…just teach your child to identify the matter of inquiry with who, what, when and where(the grammar) then get to why(logic) and finally how(rhetoric). Two cents passed on from The Grove.

    • Jan Irvin
      June 6, 2011 at 10:25 am

      There’s some good stuff on audio out there by Harvey Bluedorn. http://www.triviumpursuit.com/downloads/index.php#audio

      WARNING: He’s a Christian, and tells his students not to study things that will make them question HIM and his dogma, but overall he’s got some good material – that’s if you process it through the trivium itself.

  2. arthur duran
    June 8, 2011 at 7:36 pm

    Thank you Jan for adding the mp3! 😀

  3. Stan
    June 9, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    Human beings will never face the truth or reality, unless it serves their illusory egoic will. They will always take the easy way out. It is a flaw that is inherent in all human beings. Instead of using the Trivium and Quadrivium as a tool to liberate their minds, they will use it as a tool to oppress and enslave others. Is this not the truth we all see in the world today? Personally, I think human extinction, not education, is a solution to the flaw human beings inherently have. What are everybody’s thoughts on this?

    • Jan Irvin
      June 9, 2011 at 6:35 pm

      The only reason it can be used against others is because people don’t have it. If you have it, it can’t be used against you. The proper order and understanding of the trivium also forces one to recognize that controlling / manipulating others is irrational and not in their long term best interest.

      If you personally think extinction is the solution, go kill yourself. Why live in contradiction? 😉

      • c curmudgeon
        June 11, 2011 at 10:48 pm

        Ad hominum!

      • bob
        August 3, 2011 at 7:01 am

        Genius reply.
        Logic wins yet again.

        • e. cohen
          December 27, 2011 at 5:41 am


          010 Theory of Everything Revealed: Dec. 25. 011 P.1
          010, I.S. newly minted mathematical equation for the Theory of Everything.
          As Time creates us, we create the World.
          The universe I.S. (Information system) self-created continuum, and to understand it holistically one must acquire a philosophical leap to be able to understand the fantastic scope of absolute 0 Time (Universal Mind) which requires quantum leap of faith in imagination in understanding the quanta in its own right. A magical quantum leap from 0 Time to 1 self-created Thought, Thought defined as: Interaction between bits and bytes of Information to be what I.S… precisely so, Information System.
          Thought is a quantum leap from 0 Time (Silence, no thing) to a buzz of 1 Thought, a threshold of the Creation process. The NEUTRAL position between the 0 and the 1 is the elusive critical point of Creation, between past and future, The Eternal Now, between being and not being. Thus “to be, or not to be” has no relevance, for you are already here, asking yourself which came first the 0, or the 1, the tree or the seed, the chicken or, the egg etc. etc.
          For now, the illusion of 01 reality is no longer paradoxical. Both live in peace, mostly in harmony, but in cooperative peace, nevertheless, “Information paradox” no more.
          We can discuss how the 1 Thought is being created but not “when” was created. The when does not apply when it comes to Time-continuum. Only when the continuum is broken will it evolve into dualistic Timing in terms of beginning and end where Chaos underlies with Order. Duality is as elementary as the universe is Tangible and Intangible. Everything is as dualistic as our illumined reality of body and soul, the inseparable 0 from 1 Thought,
          Throughout, and since primordial a Time, there was a conscious and subconscious collective human mind in search of a pertinent and relevant answers to the puzzling questions, as to: Why are we here? Why and when the universe began? And what is the purpose of our being here? The relevant answer to these questions will lead us to the discovery of the Truth of our being-ness; only then the Truth will set US Free. The WHY needs to be redefined or deleted. The lack of satisfying answers to the most pressing social issues of all Times, the human mind had to invent Belief Systems in order to circumvent the fraying nerves of social fabrics. Otherwise, rulers could not have managed the rules of the jungle, though; at this computer age we still practice the rules of the jungle for lack of understanding the Creation process.
          The universe is being created and destroyed simultaneously. As you observe and contemplate what I.S., you go back to square one, like free bird consciously understands the value of being. Generally we’re creative and caring-human being, or, otherwise destructive and uncaring, as some humans are ignorant of their relationship to the Infinite realms of being.
          Until recently, the above un-answerable questions were daunting for lack of empirical evidence. Throughout history the “ingenious minds” of leaders had to concoct some semi-credible answers to the masses’ pressing questions about God and Creation. Rulers have had answers that constituted fodder for thought, temporarily plugging the holes in the buckets of the desire to understand life and freedom of the Mind. When credible answers could not come forth, Belief Systems or (B.S.) was deployed in the attempt to quell people’s anxieties, depression, and fear of the unknown. Mind you, not knowing one’s self-entity is like being an orphan anxious to know his origin, or at least his natural parents. Belief Systems were invented as a psychological dope, the like of “believe it or not ideas” concealing the lack of understanding as to how Creation works. A “Creator” was invented as a deity that some tribes called Yahweh, some called it God, and still others called it Allah, etc, the only “refuge” was available to rulers in harnessing the brute power of ignorance and the unknown.
          The simplicity of the Creation process is so evident, that it is hidden in plain sight, within the core of our body and soul.
          As Dr. Albert Einstein has lamented: “Everything must be very simple, but not any simpler.”
          Indeed the 01 I.S. the simplest mathematical and literal equations for the Theory Of Everything. Hence literacy and mathematics have triumphed as much as light concurs darkness.
          Now let us begin with the ultimate point of reference as to how the universe I.S. being created. We must follow the progression of the Mini Baby Bangs that are taking place on photonic level. 0 Time singularity quantum leaps to 1 catalyst creating the Events Zone where one can find the answer to the chain reaction of Creation, and alas, no answer to which came first, Time or Timing. The chicken or the egg,
          (Of course the answer would be two fold.) P. 2
          1- It depends on the sequence of the question. Time or Timing, or, Chicken-egg / egg-chicken…
          2- Both emerged together as Timing dictated to be what they are today, a product of the infinite possibilities in Time-continuum.
          01 as I.S. (Information System) can be viewed in terms of a self-creation photon, where magically; 0 Time-singularity creates the events zone where the Intangible magically turns semi-tangible quanta, recognizing the self as such.
          Photons and Black Holes are synonymous in their basic characteristics. Both have a Singularity and Events zone. The Microcosm creates the Macrocosm that gobbles the self-generating power needed to feed upon, so to recreate the Imploding Black Holes, serving as filters of the universe, then explodes, spewing photons of the purist of the Creation process, creating entities able to say, we are the building blocks of the universe! That’s where pure collective consciousness sets in; we are holographic Photons of the “image of God-self-created universe”.
          In being Time Element, we are witnessing a paradigm shift in comprehending the universe in its entire processes of creation and destruction. Today we are as close to understanding the make up of the universe as the hopeful forth-coming results from the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland in search of the Higgs Boson, the elusive “God Particle” that can only be discovered as a no thing-0 that cannot be found until we quantum leap in uniting the fields of empirical science and quantum philosophy.
          We have reached a no turning back destination, where physics and philosophy must converge so to present their full impact of understanding the Intangible/tangible Creation phenomenon. The Intangible 0 Time must be given the proper credence and highest respect…
          0 Time creates the 1, so the 1 realizes itself as tangible matter, a “Being”, which renders “to be or not to be” question as frivolous and irrelevant, as we are already here in 010 continuum – self – realization and self-identification, orphans no more!
          And here we are, humanity is rediscovering the self and its origin in Time so primordial that it has no beginning and no end. Beginnings and ends are naturally exists only when the whole I.S. dissected into bits and bytes that governs the spectrum of our dualistic perception. Every question has at least two different answers, Positive – Negative, Yes and No.
          The Infinite is being perpetuated by the Finite. The Finite is the vanguard of the continuum feeding the forces of the-self creation universe, always happening in the 010 Eternal Now. Things are being destroyed and instantaneously re-created. Things happen as they may within the realms of the Infinite Possibilities in a femto-second flat. Time creates; Timing dictates the outcome of interaction between the bits and bytes of the information System to be what I.S., the universe works like Velcro, snapping On and Off, not dissimilar to the nature of the String Theory.
          The Information Theory can be considered as the lasting quantum leap of our imagination in discovering the true nature of Creation, from zero to you, to me, and to Albert Einstein who said that “Imagination is more important than knowledge” Although, both go hand in hand, knowledge fuels the imagination for creativity, rather than go the destructive course of the un-known for lack of Imagination. The evolutionary advances in understanding Nature can strike a balance between Belief Systems and understanding the 010 System.
          We shall know the Truth – the universal Computer – and the Truth will set our collective creative minds FREE. Freedom of the mind precedes all economic and/or political freedom.
          Lastly, if I missed the target of explaining that which misunderstood, please advise as to where exactly I missed hitting the nail on the head and I’ll be happy to further expose the hard to imagine Truth, unveiling the M Theory for Magic and/ or for the Mysteries Creation. Only when I go two seconds back in my mind I do experience Universal reality.
          Edmond Cohen

          • Jan Irvin
            December 27, 2011 at 12:55 pm

            You may want to study David Harriman’s lecture series The Philosophic Corruption of Physics.

          • valiantx
            July 20, 2012 at 11:38 pm

            As I stated recently in part 2 of the David Harriman’s interview, it will be proven fact that it is not cause an effect that is logically correct, but quite the opposite, effect comes first before cause because there has to be an effect e.g. existence, spirit, soul, conscious etc., to causate anything at all. The universe, defined by the factual unorthodox cosmologists stated from the video presentation called ‘Thunderbolts of the Gods’ by David Talbott and Wallace Thornhill, showed the universe was not created by a singular ‘big bang’ event, but is ‘infinite’ and has always be here ‘being’ and doing’ what, where, when, who, why, and how ad infinitum. One does not cause one’s own existence to be created into the world and beyond, it grows and expands, thus it is a cause from the ‘infinite effect’ of the presence of nature!

            I do not agree with the consensus ‘appeal of authority’ from the later hellenic philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle, in my opinion they had and agenda to brainwash and confuse the populace. It is only with pre-Platonic philosophers to which and what they speak of is more universally truthful and less contradictory, thus those individuals were name or titled the ‘sages’ or the ones that know e.g. historically before Socrates, from the east and possibly the same region and else where, there were sages such as Buddha, Confucius, and Lao Tzu who spoke in very similar ideals to pre-Platonic characters and were orientated towards holistic perceptions and understandings.

            Time and human understanding will prove my theory that ‘effect’ comes first in logic before ’cause.’

  4. June 10, 2011 at 7:13 pm

    Excellent information on the trivium and today many using it to use critical thinking in the global climate control issue, http://www.conservativebookclub.com/products/bookpage.asp?prod_cd=c6101 I think! WWWW Who, why when and where? Who: “Conservatives”, Why:concerned about strange occurences, When:next week and Where: in many cities.

  5. Brad F
    June 16, 2011 at 1:10 pm

    Hi Jan, I’m a huge fan and have been following your work for years. Thanks for all you’ve done. I just wanted to chime in on what you said about 2012: You’re totally right, but I read Pinchbeck’s books and I don’t remember him anywhere talking about he himself being Quetzlcoatl (sp?). I believe you might be mistaken there. Keep up the awesome work! I am under the poverty line but I try to donate when I can. You’re doing a great service and you’ve been quite influential in my life.

  6. Bran
    July 21, 2011 at 2:30 am

    Yes, truly a great presentation. Know of to study that trivium and quadrivium.

  7. Mark Rivera
    August 6, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    Jan thank you for bringing new information to all of us you are doing gods work. I am sure god is happy that some people are being woken up and stop following false prophits. What i tell people is when you wake up you understand that Earth closes and the universe opens up. Thank you for all you do.

  8. August 30, 2011 at 4:45 am

    Great video this logical thinking is a natural process, recently trying to learn spainish and then spending nearly six weeks in spain I got a clear understanding of this method. First I just studied and studied. Then I started using logic to try to form sentences myself in my brain. Then I would go to the shop or local pub and use some of the things I had put together. Never reached the rhetoric stage still need more grammer and have not got a full grasp of the logic. I think you can start with the grammer come up to the logic to try to understand what you have been learning means and then go back to the grammer.

    Another thing I belive is that the people running the Education System know exactly what there doing. Heres my tiny bit of evidence I am basing my theory on so you can judge for yourself. I am 28 now and when I was at my local Goverment school that was a complete shambles. My Brother left this School at 16 unable to read and actually taught himself when he had left. One day when I was 13 my whole year group had to take a exam this exam was unusal as we never studied for it. It was a type of I.Q test and I remember it so clearly because I felt I had done a really good job and was looking forward to the results. No one ever gave us the results from these tests. I dont think modern exams are a accurate assesment on intelligence and the people behind the scenes running the show want to get a accurate assesment of the kids to spot talented people to bring into the system or to see possible threats to it.

    Ok bad grammer not enougth research 🙂 I think its important to be able to communicate direct experience because thats all we really have to judge anything against and to describe what the warm fuzzy feelings where telling us at the time.

    In fact its important people share direct experience no matter if others think it has merit or not otherwise we are going into self censorship. Its up to the reader or listener to make up there mind up on a subject do futher research or wait for more evidence. Anyone who has felt the pain of looking like a idiot for jumping to conclusions to soon will be doing this already.

    I think your doing excellent work 🙂

  9. brenda kershenbaum
    December 26, 2011 at 8:41 pm

    You are an excellent teacher…sensei…you are explaining linguistic akido……see charlie badenhop on facebook….a friend since 1988, who lives in japan;.

  10. valiantx
    July 20, 2012 at 11:18 pm

    @ 1:19:36 I agree entirely what you say about racism here! Furthermore, racism is but another dichotomy to split or divide people into stupidity, ignorance, and rivalry against one another only. It’s always been in fact, a ‘class’ or ‘caste’ war with these dastardly psychopathic elitists, that’s it! I ask anybody, where is there any evidence that show ancient people believed or perceived ‘racism’ was an issue of concern?! To my understanding, there hasn’t been a shred of evidence ( I may be wrong) to prove ancient people differentiated humans in body and mind due to their pigmented differences e.g. though this maybe a fallacy, how come something so modernly controversial was left out in the Lascaux cave paintings or the hieroglyphs of egypt?! Though I do not doubt ancient peoples practiced a master and slave dichotomous relationship, that doesn’t infer they discriminated slavery towards genetic differences of skin color, which in fact only came later in history beginning after the european renaissance and worldly colonialism.

    It’s always been a ‘class’ warfare and they know it, but do we understand that yet…

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